Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

YSFlight addon development, questions, tutorials, & more!
User avatar
Vic Viper
Staff
Staff
Posts: 443
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:01 pm
Favorite Aircraft: F-22A Raptor
Location: -9° 59' 6.90", -138° 49' 35.51
OS: Fail10PremiumEdition
Has thanked: 214 times
Been thanked: 147 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Vic Viper » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:15 am

Thank you again Km6. You've really stepped up today, We're glad to have you with us.
Image
VFA-49 FORUM

"If you don't know who I am...then maybe your best course would be to tread lightly."

KM6BZH
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:59 pm
Favorite Aircraft: Mitsubishi Zero
Location: Cupertino, CA
OS: Windows 10
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 147 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by KM6BZH » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:22 am

Vic Viper wrote:Thank you again Km6. You've really stepped up today, We're glad to have you with us.
You are very welcome. I just want YSFlight to be global and open.

User avatar
Nodoka Hanamura
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:01 pm
Favorite Aircraft: Su-24, Mig-29, Su-27, F-18, F-15, ADF-01, Icon A5
Has thanked: 495 times
Been thanked: 259 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Nodoka Hanamura » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:35 am

KM6BZH wrote:
Vic Viper wrote:Thank you again Km6. You've really stepped up today, We're glad to have you with us.
You are very welcome. I just want YSFlight to be global and open.
I think this is worthy of Asian Relations and Rising Star Accolades. You're doing both communities a great service KM6. I know this sounds weird, but I'm proud to know someone like you is here to help.
Image

K2W
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:56 am
Favorite Aircraft: cessna c172
OS: Windows 10
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by K2W » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:27 am

VNAF ONE wrote: I think he means, we should at least contact the original modder and ask for permission if we can't find or understand written terms of use. If you can't contact them and they are no longer around or their addons and links are gone, do not attempt to reupload or modify, since you may most likely violate their protocols. If you don't bother trying to contact or ignore trying to respect their absence, you should expect problems.
May be you right. it will be as below in Japanese.
もしあなた方が完全に礼儀正しくありたいなら(このような問題を絶対に起こしたくないなら)、元の製作者に連絡を取って、彼の作品についてあなたがしたいことすべてに許可を取るべきでしょう。連絡がつかない場合には、例えば、公開Webサイトが閉鎖されてたり、もうYSFLIGHTにかかわっていない場合なども、あなたは勝手に再公開などすべきではない。
そのような面倒が嫌ならば、どのような独自のルールをこのフォーラムが作ったところで、今後もこの種の問題が起こるのを覚悟すべきだ。
VNAF ONE wrote:I do not really agree with the absence policy though. If a site or link becomes broken, I think it should be allowed that someone re-post or re-upload it so people can access it again. Otherwise, that person's work is just lost forever. Even the original creator loses out because now they have 1 less addon with their name on it, and thus are going to be forgotten. I do agree that it shouldn't be modified if you can't contact them. That would be understandable and respectable.
*I don't use Google, only use dictionary and my own brain. Sorry for my poor English skill :( . I put Japanese texts after English ones.


I think Japanese Member don't think so. They think a modder has rights to stop publishing his works. When he close his site or link becomes broken, No one can reupload anywhere without any permittion. Actually, these matters occured about some add-on, for example SAP, Nansei-Islands,etc.
日本人はそう考えてないと思います。彼らは製作者には彼の作品の公開を止める権利があると考えています。Webサイトが閉鎖されたりリンクが壊れていた場合も、許可なく再公開する権利はだれにもありません。実際にこのような事態は、SAPや南西諸島シーナリーなど、いくつかのアドオンについて起こっています。

This is not my opinion. I'm just explaining mood of Japanese community which I felt. Because of it, I tend to use only own works or default objects for creating my scenery.
これは私の意見ではなく、私が感じている日本コミュニティの雰囲気を説明しているだけです。このために(誰にも文句を言われないように)私はシーナリー製作の時に自分で作ったものかデフォルトのオブジェクトしか使わないようにしているのです。

User avatar
NightRaven
Staff
Staff
Posts: 1789
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:00 am
Favorite Aircraft: Those of Russian/Soviet and (Nazi) German origin
Location: singapore
OS: windoze 10 64-bit
Has thanked: 424 times
Been thanked: 513 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by NightRaven » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:51 am

K2W wrote:I think Japanese Member don't think so. They think a modder has rights to stop publishing his works. When he close his site or link becomes broken, No one can reupload anywhere without any permittion. Actually, these matters occured about some add-on, for example SAP, Nansei-Islands,etc.
日本人はそう考えてないと思います。彼らは製作者には彼の作品の公開を止める権利があると考えています。Webサイトが閉鎖されたりリンクが壊れていた場合も、許可なく再公開する権利はだれにもありません。実際にこのような事態は、SAPや南西諸島シーナリーなど、いくつかのアドオンについて起こっています。
This appears very perplexing to me, and I'm sure many others here will be confused too. I was the one who reuploaded SAP after the main site went down. But people reupload addons which cannot be downloaded any more in order to keep these works alive and available to all, like VNAF said. The intention is never to claim credit over the whole pack; if it were so it would be stealing, which appears to be the fear of the Japanese modders, but of which I believe most people have the moral integrity not to commit. I reuploaded SAP because of the great works inside and I am sure many people will miss out if no one else reuploaded it. I don't claim credit for any of the aircraft within it, be it the BD-5J, MiG-3 or the detailed T-50. I believe that the original repaint policies will continue to apply to such reuploads, as it would be arrogant to override such policies over others' work.

The problem arises if you keep dead links as they are. Maybe someone finds a screenshot of a dead add-on that he really likes. But because no one reuploads it (even if the others have it), that person will have to play YS without what is to him a valuable add-on. It is very pitiful to have had something but to lose it forever.

The only other logical method of keeping dead addons alive is through word of mouth; going out and asking publicly who has the files, then having a one on one exchange of files. But this is problematic, as you don't know who has the dead addons and which packs are truly gone.

If anything, this is the only point I disagree on the Japanese perspective of this issue.

Also, Google Translate is trash in translating East Asian languages. Even so, having at least a basic translation is good, because we will at least try to understand what you are trying to say.
K2W wrote:*I don't use Google, only use dictionary and my own brain. Sorry for my poor English skill :( . I put Japanese texts after English ones.
it's okay. It's understandable, and providing your original text is good practice too.
I still remember the times I had to use a dictionary when trying to speak Indonesian. As much as it was bad, people will at least have an understanding on the main message. We won't fault you for having a supposedly "inferior" command of English.
Image

User avatar
Dragon_Mech
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 564
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:18 pm
Favorite Aircraft: F-14, F-15D&E, SR-71, King Air 200, B737
Location: Mansfield, Mo. USA
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 126 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Dragon_Mech » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:26 am

i have to agree with Nightraven on the point of re-uploading addon packs from dead sites. some of the most fun and unique addons i have are from re-uploads of addon packs from dead sites. and to deny the global YSFlight community access to said addon packs that are part of YSFlight addon history is a selfish act in of itself. and that is all i have to say about that subject.
Owner, Dragonic Machine Industries
Image

User avatar
Midnight Rambler
Senior Veteran
Senior Veteran
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:08 pm
Favorite Aircraft: F-16
Location: Australia
OS: Windows 10
Has thanked: 254 times
Been thanked: 354 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Midnight Rambler » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:41 am

Some really good discussion going on here. I'm pretty impressed that this has more or less been solved by the general community without admins taking it over post argument :)
Image

User avatar
Nodoka Hanamura
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:01 pm
Favorite Aircraft: Su-24, Mig-29, Su-27, F-18, F-15, ADF-01, Icon A5
Has thanked: 495 times
Been thanked: 259 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Nodoka Hanamura » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:44 am

Dragon_Mech wrote:i have to agree with Nightraven on the point of re-uploading addon packs from dead sites. some of the most fun and unique addons i have are from re-uploads of addon packs from dead sites. and to deny the global YSFlight community access to said addon packs that are part of YSFlight addon history is a selfish act in of itself. and that is all i have to say about that subject.
I know my position in all this is as a diplomat, but I cannot help but agree. Some of the greatest mods for YSFlight originate from now deceased sites and long gone users. Reuploading them (with credit) is not intended as a act of insult, rather a act of carrying the flame of the creator, allowing their works to be seen and enjoyed by future generations. I for one, if I were to release mods, I would not mind people releasing them with credit long after I have abandoned this game, and GrunSol is nothing but a legacy like that of RPFW and the 241st, along with that of VFA-49 and CVW-171.

It is okay to have pride in your work. It is okay to prohibit others from modifying it without your permission or not at all. But where I, and many others consider selfish is when older works, especially those who can be considered part of this game's modding history, are left to fade from memory.

I know this may come as an offense to the culture regarding modding in the Japanese Community - this is not intended - but this is my general opinion.

Midnight Rambler wrote:Some really good discussion going on here. I'm pretty impressed that this has more or less been solved by the general community without admins taking it over post argument :)
I agree, this is something I have not seen in the community in a while.
Image

K2W
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:56 am
Favorite Aircraft: cessna c172
OS: Windows 10
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by K2W » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:47 am

NightRaven wrote:The only other logical method of keeping dead addons alive is through word of mouth
In the truth, I guess that it is also illegal...
確か実際には、それも著作権違反のはず。。。
Nodoka Hanamura wrote:I for one, if I were to release mods, I would not mind people releasing them with credit long after I have abandoned this game,
Personally speaking, I think so too. I'm welcome that you modify or divert my add-ons. In the future, when addon packs which I post my works and I disappear from YS, you can reupload my works.
However,we must mind that both you and I don't have any rights to violate each modder's copyrights on his works.We should understand that public interest can't be reason why you violate individual copyrights.
個人的に言えば、私もそう思う。私のアドオンがどう改造されてもかまわないし、将来、私と私が作品を投稿しているアドオンパックが消えた時に、誰かが代わりに私の作品をアップすることを悪いとは思わない。
でも、あなたも私も他人が彼の作品について有している権利をとやかくすることはできないということを理解しなければならない。公衆の利益になることは個人の著作権を犯す理由にはならないことを理解しなければならない。

Of course, Actually, many modder, also Japanese, will not claim these violations. Because they are not their critical interest and they are lenient. However, you shouldn't expect or must not force all of them to be always lenient.
So, if you want to ignore somewhose rights for smiles of you, I can't stop do that, but I advice you to make up your mind to claims as now.
もちろん、実際には日本人でも多くの製作者は違反について主張することはない。彼ら自身の利益にはならないし、彼らが寛大だから。でも、あなた方は彼ら全員が寛大であることを期待すべきでないし、ましてや寛大であることを強要することはできないよ。
だから、みんなの笑顔のためには誰かの権利なんて無視していいと思うなら、私は止めないけど、今回のようなクレームがこれからも来ることだけは覚悟しとくべきだね。

By the way, speaking not seriously, do you remember that the reason why I create acount for this forum and post first reply was to support to an anger claim for my scenery? It can be a example of burden given by your action ;) .
そういえば、これはまじめに言うのではないけれど、私がこのフォーラムのアカウントをとって、最初のリプライをしたのはこのサイトにあった私のシーナリーに対する怒りのクレームに対応するためだったんだよね。君たちの行為が製作者に負担を与えた一例だよ。

User avatar
NightRaven
Staff
Staff
Posts: 1789
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:00 am
Favorite Aircraft: Those of Russian/Soviet and (Nazi) German origin
Location: singapore
OS: windoze 10 64-bit
Has thanked: 424 times
Been thanked: 513 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by NightRaven » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:03 am

K2W wrote:In the truth, I guess that it is also illegal...
確か実際には、それも著作権違反のはず。。。
woah... okay :roll: that's just sad then. Keeping a dead mod dead in order to respect someone's claims when the original creator is probably already gone and probably wouldn't care anyway... whoa boy.

If this is the Japanese community's method of thinking, then I have no further comment.

just need to vent
K2W wrote:By the way, speaking not seriously, do you remember that the reason why I create acount for this forum and post first reply was to support to an anger claim for my scenery? It can be a example of burden given by your action ;) .
そういえば、これはまじめに言うのではないけれど、私がこのフォーラムのアカウントをとって、最初のリプライをしたのはこのサイトにあった私のシーナリーに対する怒りのクレームに対応するためだったんだよね。君たちの行為が製作者に負担を与えた一例だよ。
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Image

User avatar
Midnight Rambler
Senior Veteran
Senior Veteran
Posts: 2103
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:08 pm
Favorite Aircraft: F-16
Location: Australia
OS: Windows 10
Has thanked: 254 times
Been thanked: 354 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Midnight Rambler » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:25 am

K2W wrote:
NightRaven wrote:The only other logical method of keeping dead addons alive is through word of mouth
In the truth, I guess that it is also illegal...
Strictly speaking, maybe. Surely this can be resolved to a mutually beneficial end to both parties. How about we work together to fix this disagreement, rather than start bringing legalities into it.

That being said, i have a limited knowledge of digital copyright law and the sky could be purple tomorrow. :lol:
Image

User avatar
Barracuz
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 972
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:49 pm
Favorite Aircraft: The Boeing 757
Location: Providence, Rhode Island
OS: Windows 10/Gentoo
Has thanked: 226 times
Been thanked: 194 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Barracuz » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:10 pm

NightRaven wrote:The intention is never to claim credit over the whole pack; if it were so it would be stealing, which appears to be the fear of the Japanese modders
I think we should emphasize this some more only because it seems the Japanese think we are uploading and sharing their add-ons as our own works.
Image
Beginner ATC for hire!
Current Projects:
-Pilatus PC12
-Mooney M20
-New England Scenery
Fine Print:
**Word of Caution**
My knowledge is limited. Anything I write in my posts may or may not be accurate. To be honest I think its all crap.

User avatar
plunderbird
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:05 pm
Favorite Aircraft: F5 A10 SR71
Location: Wellingborough England
OS: Windows 7
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 20 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by plunderbird » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:31 pm

I see what has been going on, and agree that staff should have been told sooner. All the re-paints I've done, I've asked, or checked it's ok beforehand. It's the right thing to do, in my opinion. That's as I havent used any 'dead' packs for repaints. As the GAC pack sates it can be used by anyone.
Fliped out of the arena, again! :(

User avatar
Vic Viper
Staff
Staff
Posts: 443
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:01 pm
Favorite Aircraft: F-22A Raptor
Location: -9° 59' 6.90", -138° 49' 35.51
OS: Fail10PremiumEdition
Has thanked: 214 times
Been thanked: 147 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Vic Viper » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:55 pm

K2W wrote:Of course, Actually, many modder, also Japanese, will not claim these violations. Because they are not their critical interest and they are lenient. However, you shouldn't expect or must not force all of them to be always lenient.
So, if you want to ignore somewhose rights for smiles of you, I can't stop do that, but I advice you to make up your mind to claims as now.
We are already intent (made up our minds) on enforcing the right of original modders (whether they be from the Japanese community or anywhere in the world) on YSFHQ going forward. The last thing we still need to discuss is uploading dead works, but I'm also sure that old policy will change somewhat now.

I hesitate to iron out more stuff, because the new admins haven't been elected yet and right now we are all speaking as community members only. I'm still confident this will no longer be an issue (on this website anyway) going forward.
Image
VFA-49 FORUM

"If you don't know who I am...then maybe your best course would be to tread lightly."

User avatar
VNAF ONE
Senior Veteran
Senior Veteran
Posts: 2127
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:16 am
Favorite Aircraft: A-10C Thunderbolt II
Location: Indiana/Florida
OS: Windows 10
Has thanked: 199 times
Been thanked: 380 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by VNAF ONE » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:12 pm

Midnight Rambler wrote:Some really good discussion going on here. I'm pretty impressed that this has more or less been solved by the general community without admins taking it over post argument :)
That's because this has been a very productive and healthy argument. I wish it was like this more often. It's nice to be able to put in input as a member, and not an admin.

As far as legalities, I hate to say it, but at some point, people won't care. If a link or site goes down, and people want the addon, it will be passed around anyway. Think of it as a black market. Sure, it might be against that modder's wants to re-upload, but if they're gone, why do they care anyway. Plus, are you really gonna pursue legal action over a free addon in a free game? Nobody wins. There are times when legal action is not pursued on much more serious infractions, because it's stupid and pointless.

If modders are going to start hiding or taking away addons from the English (and other) communities because of this, then go right ahead. I don't think it's fair to do things this way when people mean nothing but respect and honor.
VNAF Aerobatics Commanding Officer and Founder - - - YSAS Member - - - YS Aerobatic Pilot
YS ACC A-10 East Coast Demo Team pilot - - - B-1B Razor Demo Team pilot
VFA-49 GhostHawks Commanding Officer
Image

User avatar
Patrick31337
Staff
Staff
Posts: 3486
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:01 am
Favorite Aircraft: Baron 58
Location: Tennessee
OS: Win Vista
Has thanked: 1347 times
Been thanked: 1475 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Patrick31337 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:19 pm

BARRACUZ wrote:
NightRaven wrote:The intention is never to claim credit over the whole pack; if it were so it would be stealing, which appears to be the fear of the Japanese modders
I think we should emphasize this some more only because it seems the Japanese think we are uploading and sharing their add-ons as our own works.
It's worse than that. Reuploading lost addons was done out of honor, respect, and love for the original authors and their work, but it was taken as an insult. We should respect their wishes, but at the same time they should understand that we only did it because we think so highly of them.

KM6BZH
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:59 pm
Favorite Aircraft: Mitsubishi Zero
Location: Cupertino, CA
OS: Windows 10
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 147 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by KM6BZH » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:23 pm

K2W wrote:もしあなた方が完全に礼儀正しくありたいなら(このような問題を絶対に起こしたくないなら)、元の製作者に連絡を取って、彼の作品についてあなたがしたいことすべてに許可を取るべきでしょう。連絡がつかない場合には、例えば、公開Webサイトが閉鎖されてたり、もうYSFLIGHTにかかわっていない場合なども、あなたは勝手に再公開などすべきではない。そのような面倒が嫌ならば、どのような独自のルールをこのフォーラムが作ったところで、今後もこの種の問題が起こるのを覚悟すべきだ。
Translate/Summary:
If you don't want this problem to happen, you should contact the original modder and get all permissions. You shouldn't re-release if the original modder's website is gone or if they are completely not on YSFlight. If you don't want to do that, there will be another problem again.

Second paragraph translate/summary:
Many Japanese modders won't claim the copyright violations because they are generous. But you shouldn't think that every modder is generous. If you continue to use this way, be prepared to get claims. (about copyright)

Third paragraph:
By the way, speaking not seriously, do you remember that the reason why I create acount for this forum and post first reply was to support to an anger claim for my scenery? It can be a example of burden given by your action ;) .

Swift
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 740
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:51 pm
Favorite Aircraft: Mig-41 Firefly, Mig-21, F/A-53A Foxtrot
Location: The Mün
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate
Has thanked: 72 times
Been thanked: 264 times
Contact:

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Swift » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:29 pm

KM6BZH wrote:
K2W wrote:もしあなた方が完全に礼儀正しくありたいなら(このような問題を絶対に起こしたくないなら)、元の製作者に連絡を取って、彼の作品についてあなたがしたいことすべてに許可を取るべきでしょう。連絡がつかない場合には、例えば、公開Webサイトが閉鎖されてたり、もうYSFLIGHTにかかわっていない場合なども、あなたは勝手に再公開などすべきではない。そのような面倒が嫌ならば、どのような独自のルールをこのフォーラムが作ったところで、今後もこの種の問題が起こるのを覚悟すべきだ。
You shouldn't re-release if the original modder's website is gone or if they are completely not on YSFlight.
that would kill a lot of great addons... :?

KM6BZH
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:59 pm
Favorite Aircraft: Mitsubishi Zero
Location: Cupertino, CA
OS: Windows 10
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 147 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by KM6BZH » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:31 pm

My solution idea: Make a new thread in the forum for all copyright reports. If there is a violation, post it there and the admin will review and take actions.

私の解決策:このフォーラムに新しい著作権の項目を作り、著作権違反だと思ったらそこにポストする。そして、アドミンの方々が必要なアクションを取る。

User avatar
Nodoka Hanamura
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 898
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:01 pm
Favorite Aircraft: Su-24, Mig-29, Su-27, F-18, F-15, ADF-01, Icon A5
Has thanked: 495 times
Been thanked: 259 times

Re: Japanese repaints and addon copyright discussion

Post by Nodoka Hanamura » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:11 pm

Even better one (Although we can still use KM6's idea)

Convince Japanese Modders to use the Creative Commons Licenses for copyrighting their works. For instance, BY-NC-ND 4.0 essentially prohibits profiting off the content and making derivatives - Whereas where modders like Zephyr with XLP can use BY-NC-SA, meaning that You cannot profit off the content but you can create derivatives as long as you release them under BY-NC-SA. It would be best to use the regular copyright logo regarding content requiring permission. This would help break this language barrier issue.
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests