YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

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YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Strike » Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:41 pm

YSF modders have the audacity to attach copyright restrictions to models that are outright copies of real aircraft and/or real airlines. Is that even legal?

Bare in mind there isn't a single modder that I know of that has obtained permission from the aircraft manufacturer or airline and that yes, their 3D models are offered for free albeit publicly.

Your thoughts.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Luisitoo » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:32 pm

YSF modders have the audacity to attach copyright restrictions to models that are outright copies of real aircraft and/or real airlines. Is that even legal?
Personally imo, it depends from which perspective you're looking from.

From the perspective of a modder, creating models take time and effort, so its only fair that YSF modders who spend their time creating models for this community, For FREE get their deserved credit. And of course, since they're the ones who created the model, they get every right to decide what can and cannot be done with the models they've created. In the end, they're still the ones who created it, and we, mere consumers of their creation, have to respect that.


Give credit where credit is due.

Same goes with anything created online, but thats beside the point. The point here is, if you created something, a 3D model of a plane in this case, then you "own" that item, you're the author of that item and you get the "right" to dictate what it can and cannot be done with it.

Its also important to note that modders only claim copyright on their created models and not the real life aircraft itself, and for me, thats where the line is set.
Is that even legal?
Everything in the internet falls under fair use laws, and by definition, we are allowed to use, copy, and create copyrighted materials for our own purpose or "transformative" purposes. And which ever that purpose is, is an open interpretation.

Im sure we're all in mutual agreement with always crediting the rightful intellectual owners of the models we create, especially whether or not they explicitly mention permissions are needed.

TL;DR: Modders get the right to decide what can be done to their creations simply because they're the creators of it and because fair use laws allows us to do so; modders dont own the real life version they are trying to replicate, only the models they base it on.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Gunny » Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:26 pm

One must keep in mind that add-ons created for Ysflight can only be used in Ysflight. Not by any copyright laws, but by the law of programing in a matter of speaking. They will not function in any other sim or game. Also no creator in Ysflight gains any monetary remuneration for their creations, it is not only tradition but indeed part of the rules of joining this site. Once one releases their creation here it is free to be used by all including non-members. The terms of use basically is a gentlemen's agreement between the user and the creator and is not binding outside of this site. But be assured that within this site there will be ramifications for the breaking of the agreement by trying to publish other peoples works against the agreement. IE. In one request I made I asked that the creator make it free to all to modify there work. but in the end it is up to the creator of the work to make that decision. So if the creator decides they do not wish it to be so, so be it, I would have no choice but to agree with there decision. Nuff said.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Neocon » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:35 am

Luisitoo wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Everything in the internet falls under fair use laws
That's not how fair use works, at least in the US. Fair use is a very narrow set of allowances of copyrighted material for a very limited set of reasons (reporting as news, for example). There is no fair use protection for the use of, say, trademarked logos of airlines or the names of aircraft, for general use. People who make mods based on those things cannot have a copyright of their models because they did not design them.

Strictly speaking, you cannot copyright a 3d image of a real-world structure or vehicle. You can't even publish pictures of some real-world buildings for profit because the designs are protected by their architects without some hoops. Most companies don't go after freeware addons creators.


With all of that said:
Gunny wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:26 pm
The terms of use basically is a gentlemen's agreement
I was trying to think of how to word it, but Gunny does the job perfectly.

Nothing in this post should be taken as legal advice
Last edited by Neocon on Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Anon » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:02 am

I'd say it's a matter of appreciation and basic decency. If someone spends hours making an aircraft for you to enjoy, the least you can do is credit them and, idk, not steal their work. I'd even donate money to those that create blanks and large addon packs.

In regards to copyright, aircraft names and even designs are not copyrighted. The only thing you cannot do is copy a patented technology then build it, or get their official design schematics and photocopy/photograph them.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Strike » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:04 am

First of all, thank you for your replies. I understand the spirit of YSF, both in the way real life aircraft are represented and why it's deemed permissible and the way we handle other modders' creations; seeking permission and giving credit as a form of a gentleman's agreement, as described by Gunny.

In the discrod channel and in the viewtopic.php?f=140&t=8637 topic it's been established that virtual airlines shall not use livery of real airlines and that is perfectly understandable. It's not yet clear if using names of real airplanes and identical representations of them is kosher. But as several have pointed out, usage of the model limits itself to a small community of private individuals, nobody is making a dime out of this, and the models are made in good faith.

In case of Luisito's reply. I agree with you if we are referring to an original work. I cannot give you any examples because what I might think of as an original creation here in YSF might actually be something taken from Japanese pop culture, for instance. But while a squadron livery can certainly be copyrighted, I don't think it would grant you the authority over the 3D model of an accurately named and shaped aircraft that exists in the real world if you were to slap that livery onto said aircraft model. Now, I understand that lots of effort came into the creation of the model but sadly that does not give the modder any rights over its usage because in a black and white world, that person has already broken the law in what many would agree in a small and practically inconsequential and harmless way.

So ultimately, I agree with Neocon's statement:
Neocon wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:35 am
People who make mods based on those things cannot have a copyright of their models because they did not design them.
So back to the gentleman's agreement on seeking permission and giving credit where credit is due. While seeking permission is the polite thing to do, there is no legal basis behind it. And I say "legal basis" because some in the community describe the act of modifying, repackaging, reuploading, or even sharing somebody else's work without their permission as "illegal" when they fail to realize that the work itself is illegal more so if you pretend to condition or restrict the way it's to be used. In other words, saying you can't modify or reupload without my permission makes it more illegal because you're assuming ownership over the design. Saying you can do anything you want with it makes it "less" illegal since you don't have any rights over it. Obviously I'm referring to accurate representations of real aircraft.

Giving credit where credit is due is all very well but publishing the addons anonymously is somewhat safer when you understand the nature of copyright laws.

Finally, there is the "fair use" clause. If a modder can make a 3D copy of a real world aircraft under fair use, does that entitle him to his own copyright over his 3D model? I'm inclined to think that yes, it does. But the reality is that under the terms of fair use, the only person in the YSF community realistically entitled to it is the creator of YSF in relation to the default "stock" aircraft, Mr. Soji Yamakawa.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Strike » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:10 am

Anon wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:02 am
In regards to copyright, aircraft names and even designs are not copyrighted. The only thing you cannot do is copy a patented technology then build it, or get their official design schematics and photocopy/photograph them.
If that were so, plastic model manufacturers and toy makers wouldn't need licensing agreements.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Anon » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:58 am

If that were so, plastic model manufacturers and toy makers wouldn't need licensing agreements.
That's because they're turning a profit and mass-producing them. Making models/mods for games is completely different.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Strike » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:15 pm

Anon wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:58 am
If that were so, plastic model manufacturers and toy makers wouldn't need licensing agreements.
That's because they're turning a profit and mass-producing them. Making models/mods for games is completely different.
Designs are copyrighted. Names are trademarked. To make and sell a toy of a real aircraft you need the permission of the aircraft manufacturer. That's established. If you want to make a 3D model of the real aircraft for YSF, technically you need permission but in practice nobody really cares. That's established. The question is, since the design and the name of the model is not an original work but a copy from a real world vehicle, can you claim copyright?

To be perfectly clear, I know that the way we use addons of real aircraft in YSF "doesn't really matter". I know that much appreciation and respect is owed to the modders who make said 3D models. I am not arguing otherwise much less am I trying to "steal" their models or deprive them of their well deserved credit. The question is, again, can you copyright the 3D model of a real world aircraft?

In my opinion, no. Seeing that you need a licensing agreement to sell toy models of real airplanes if only because you want to use the name of the real aircraft, you will also need an agreement to condition the use of the 3D model of a real airplane with the correspondingly real name. We also see that other flight simulators do not give the real name of the plane but use obviously similar designs. (The real name is trademarked). So I guess it would be safe to conclude that you cannot copyright (hence condition the use of) a YSF addon that represents a real world aircraft.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by jsu2 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:27 pm

If you repost a song, the songwriter potentially loses money because their song is being given away. That's why they quickly go after people that do that. If you visually copy an airplane and put it in a game with a model and cockpit, you're not giving away an airplane. You aren't creating it automatically by copying the manufacturers blueprints. Unless what is being photographed and who is photographing says otherwise, pictures of a plane and what you can see with your eyes doesn't usually have a tax. I don't know anything about the ramifications about making a model of a copyrighted design, but I'm sure you can't take credit for the design of the aircraft but can take credit for how you designed the model and the effort you put into it.

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by waspe414 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:31 pm

jsu2 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:27 pm
If you visually copy an airplane and put it in a game with a model and cockpit, you're not giving away an airplane.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Strike » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:57 pm

jsu2 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:27 pm
I'm sure you can't take credit for the design of the aircraft but can take credit for how you designed the model and the effort you put into it.
100% agree. It seems so difficult to create such 3D models at least to me. Besides, preventing people from creating these 3D models is stifling epecially youngsters from cultivating their potential in 3D model designs and discourages them from becoming future aviators, engineers, or simple aviation enthusiasts. Sadly, copyrights, trademarks, and also patents exist for a reason and if you cannot claim something to be of your own creation well, too bad and don't pretend you own it.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Neocon » Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:16 am

The more I think about it, I keep coming back to the fact that .dat, .lst, .dnm, .srf, and .fld files are just text files. Text can be copyrighted. If you create, say, a .srf from scratch, the text of that .srf is your original creation.

I have personally taken the position that most of my addons are free to use and modify, but I can't make that decision for anybody but myself.

Nothing in this post should be taken as legal advice

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Swift » Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:57 am

Imagine multi-billion dollar companies caring about a 3d recreation of their aircraft in a 90s game.

Seriously though, among every single flight sim community i'm in, not a single parent company has ever cared about 3d models of their aircraft when they're classed as freeware. Payware does get a bit muddy and oftentimes bigger developers will have an open line of communication with the parent company of the aircraft they're modeling.

The copyrights we attach are literally just a "hey, I made this, this is how I want my work used". If someone attaches a copyright that states you can't modify their work, then just respect the modder's wishes. It sucks but whatever.

I don't think there's really a problem here, all of our works are freeware and they always will be. Boeing and all the other manufacturers aren't going to DMCA us for free advertising. Hell, my aviation interest stems from 3d modeling and flight sims. They'll have a customer because of those free works.

Reading your discord post, I have something to add
How about this. You make a 3D model of a real aircraft like the one on the screenshot, obviously without ever consulting the airplane manufacturer or airline, offer it publicly for free and then proceed to restrict the way in which other people can use it
It sounds like this whole debate was started because you wanted to use something and someone told you no, that's the vibe i'm getting here.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Hornet » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:29 am

Technically, it is illegal and there is no doubt.
However, as far as it released as freeware, the companies will not care about this.

But is this meaning using those addons without permission from the original author is possible?
This is only about my country's copyright law, but in our law, even it didn't got permission from the original author, if someone infringe its copyright, it is also need to be protected. This means the second person also can claim his copyright to third person. But also if original author claims for copyright of it, it is also accepted because it is different matter.

Since our copyright law is based on the Berne Convention, I think many countries has similar law.

So, even if modder makes illegal model, we need to respect his opinion about his addon.
Even though he broke the rule of copyright, he also do his own creation and effort.
Claiming copyright of the original aircraft design or logo is owners job, not our job.
Anon wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:02 am
In regards to copyright, aircraft names and even designs are not copyrighted.
And this is wrong. The aircraft name, nickname, design, everything is copyrighted.
This is why the simulations or game (like Ace Combat, DCS, etc...) has licenses from the companies.
It is not depend on the fact it is freeware or payware. Whatever it is, the copyright exist.


And we, including YS communities outside of the FHQ, has an implicit rule about all things are freeware.
But we actually has the case of someone took the addons and make it payware in OTHER GAME.
This is one of the reason that some modders try to protect his work.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Neocon » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:13 am

I was just looking at the Mod forum at the SCS forums (American/Euro Truck Simulator) for something completely unrelated and noticed they had a prominent warning about mods using intellectual property from other companies. Basically they stated that they do not allow paid mods because when money gets involved it is complicated. They do allow people to release unpaid mods on their forums, including trucks from companies that are not in the game, as long as they are free to the public. They also have a statement in their rules that people basing their mods on the work of others should include a statement of permissions from the author of the original mod.

So there's that. ;)

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by HawkbitAlpha » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:47 am

Considering how YS has had real life aircraft and liveries for ages, at least as far back as TF58's pack, and no doubt longer than that, without (as far as I know) any of the companies behind them getting mad about it

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Strike » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:14 am

If we can agree that there is no co-o-o-o-o-pyright (said in a scary voice) violation in modifying, repainting, repackaging, redistribuiting non original works, in other words, models of real vehicles, the YSF community could have preserved so many models throughout the years. Instead, many works of art have been lost and will continue to be lost or shoved into a tucked away corner of the internet where nobody will find them and all the hours of 3D modelling would have gone to waste. The community could have also centralized the distribution or publishing of addons and that would have meant a much bigger market share for YSF.

I only know from Microsoft Flight Simulator 98 and Midtown Madness 2 that there used to be one, two or three websites where you could browse some pretty good models. That made it easy for the player most of whom don't go too deep into the game as in visiting forums or wasting hours on end trying to decipher the where what and who of addons. Because as it is, if your average Joe wants a light weight, simple, highly customizable, instruments included, and non-android flight simulator, the best option is YSF. But if he wants any particular plane, where does he start? Where does he go? How easy is it to find the link to the addon database and how friendly is that? Why do users have to deal with an addon that cointains 100plus airplanes just for one airplane he was looking for? And forget about comparing F-16s on your own. It takes technical knowledge and time. On the other hand, if all this was centralized, you filter the result in the download page and you'll get your model much more quickly. Obviously, there are too many options of the same aircraft as to realistically do this so it would be up to the website administrators to decide the worthiest models. Squadron models may be excluded by default. air.lst files can be given a serial number with plenty of spaces between used numbers to facilitate the ordering and categorizing of aircraft in the seletion menu.

Either way, I have the impression that addon creators in YSF can be selfish. I read in another topic in this forum about a Japanese modder who was complaining about something related with something lost in translation. So I hardly doubt that a website where you can download the most admireable and respectable models for YSF will ever exist. Maybe the community doesn't even deserve it. And obviously, having all the models in one website doesn't mean they will exist forever. But at the very least there will be more people involved in its administration and as it is, long time members would surely not have any issues with funding the server as the community already has a paid website hosting service succesfully running. And since you can't claim copyright over a design that has been stolen, a trademark that has been plagerized, volunteers will be able to host backups of those so precious 3D models that took so long to create but hardly anyone gets to see sine they are sparsely scattered around the web, often accompanied by unwanted models.

Either way, I would like to hear your perfect reasons why what has been done for other games just cannot be done for YSF. But the way I see it, the YSF community is playing itself. And congratulations, I may add.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Anon » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:43 am

Strike wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:14 am
But if he wants any particular plane, where does he start? Where does he go? How easy is it to find the link to the addon database and how friendly is that?
I'm relatively new to YSF, and using the database is extremely easy. Really. The "Find" tool works wonders.

Also, with this huge amount of mods, isn't it obvious you'd get a mess in terms of download links and such? There is so much variety in how many packs you can get that honestly, it's a miracle that some people can somehow can keep track of it all.

I don't see why you'd want to simplify it. DCS for example is easy with modules, just click on which one you want in the store and buy it. Problem is, you only get around 40 of them, and they're expensive ;)

If you'd want to create a simple download page with a nice variety of aircraft you can get individually, we'd appreciate that greatly.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Luisitoo » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:46 am

Either way, I would like to hear your perfect reasons why what has been done for other games just cannot be done for YSF.
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