YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by HawkbitAlpha » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:53 am

Strike wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:14 am
If we can agree... [...] [.......] [............................]
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Swift » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:10 am

Repeat after me Strike:

3D freeware models in a freeware game aren't stealing.
A copyright model isn't stealing.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by waspe414 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:23 am

Strike wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:14 am
And since you can't claim copyright over a design that has been stolen, a trademark that has been plagerized, volunteers will be able to host backups of those so precious 3D models that took so long to create but hardly anyone gets to see sine they are sparsely scattered around the web, often accompanied by unwanted models.
A photographer holds copyright on a photo even if the photo is of a copyright aircraft with a trademarked logo. The photographer retains the rights to the photo and its distribution.

More pertinent, the global YS community is built on trust and respect. If people don't want a thing to be done with their work, you don't do the thing with their work, regardless of legality.

I don't know that anyone on this forum is a copyright lawyer, and if they were, finding which countries even have applicable law and fully understanding them is an endeavour beyond the most ambitious forum topic. I would recommend some in-depth research before more pontificating happens on the subject. I'm sure there's already established caselaw on this in the US, and likely elsewhere as well, and I am also sure it's overly complicated
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Hornet » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:09 am

Just to add,
Why don't some people want their addons to be modified?
Of course, there are various reasons for this, but I'll tell you some of the reasons I've seen.

First, it's an alpha or beta version, so the development is not complete. The add-ons they are still developing may have external or internal changes. If someone wants to modify the add-on, they must remember this. Or if someone paints the aircraft that the original author had planned first, it may be uncomfortable for the original author to lose his work.

Secondly, they may think their add-on quality is insufficient. Although they have released it, they themselves may find their output unsatisfactory and shameful for others to use.

Finally, they may not want their addons to be ruined by beginners with insufficient skills. Anyone who has a strong attachment to their own add-on may not want their high-quality add-on to lose its original look by immature or overly exaggerated painting.

Maybe you don't understand this, but as an add-on developer, I can understand the above reasons and respect their choice.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Neocon » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:31 pm

Here's some fun facts:
If you take a photograph of the Eiffel Tower at night, you are not free to distribute it without paying a licensing fee, even if you are just posting it on Facebook.
Until recently, a major music company owned the rights to the Happy Birthday song and enforced those rights against people who performed it for profit, which is why restaurants often have their own song to sing at birthdays and TV shows usually use "For he's a jolly good fellow" at birthday parties.

Nothing in this post should be taken as legal advice

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Deleted User 4845 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:23 pm

I do hope the models that are gone for good, whether voluntarily or not, were the shitty ones -pardon my French. It is a real shame that models will gradually disappear as modders lose their hosting services, backup files, enthusiasm, or even their life. I also think it's quite selfish to deprive the community of something they valued. So the way I see it, YSF is "politing" its way to extinction.

Also, is sharing freeware illegal? There are tons of intellectual property that are being counterfeited or pirated for real but my sending an aircraft that's publicly available for free to somebody else directly without the consent of the modder is a no-no?* Seeing that that's the attitude of most people in YSF I imagine none of them have ever obtained any pirated material whatsoever, or even shared a CD or mp3 file with a friend. ...Or do they have double standards??? Not a personal attack, but just want to put things into perspective.

But to keep it brief, let's focus on "preservation" rather than "modification" or "repaints". If you want to know my personal opinion, I'm fed up with the gazillion repaints of the same aircraft. I mean, if you want to repaint an aircraft so it looks the way you want it to in your screen, go ahead, don't bother the modder and don't publish it into an already bloated database.

*It's perfectly understood that there might be a version conflict but that's just an slight inconvenience.

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Swift » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:19 pm

YSF is "politing" its way to extinction.
Finally, the YS is dead comment.
my sending an aircraft that's publicly available for free to somebody else directly without the consent of the modder is a no-no?
It's called being respectful of the modder's wishes. Something we've been trying to educate you on. :roll:

See, nobody is stopping you from doing it privately, doing so publicly is what draws the line. Are you just going to start making up more non-issues to keep the thread going?
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Neocon » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:38 pm

Strike wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:23 pm
my sending an aircraft that's publicly available for free to somebody else directly without the consent of the modder is a no-no?
If it is something that is available to download, just send them a link to download it. If your friend doesn't have a network connection, load it on a flash drive and share it that way, I guess.

If you have a copy of an addon that is no longer available to download, I don't see a problem with sending a copy to a friend by private message/e-mail. That's actually done quite often for some addons from the early 2000s that vanished in the last 20 years with no way to contact the authors.

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Gunny » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:06 pm

If they will be only using it for their own private use, not a problem at all. But if they intend to republish that could be a problem.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Hornet » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:10 am

Ok so... we were talked about how the addons are illegal and now we talking about these illegal things are must uploaded without respecting original author's thought?

Even if re-uploading freewares are not illegal, we are talking about how we could respect original author.

Whatever we ever did illegal things before, that doesn't justify doing another illegal thing.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Deleted User 4845 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am

I knew from the onset I was going to encounter quite a lot of resistance to a proposal that is actually quite normal. But I had gotten a gist of YSF community's mindset and there're some misconceptions that in order to tackle, needed some rather blunt and open ended statements.

I think we've shared enough our ideas on the legalities of this and that. You've also speculated enough as to whether I want to defend aircraft manufacturers or whether a perm request of mine got rejected. Neither one's the case. But I'd like to quote Swift:
Swift wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:19 pm
It's called being respectful of the modder's wishes. Something we've been trying to educate you on.
Now, I clearly understand that in this community "repainting" also implies repackaging. Modders don't always leave explicit provisions on repackaging or reuploading only. Hornet shared his insights as to why we may assume modders don't want that either -and by default. But more to the point, how are we supposed to know a modder's wishes if his website vanishes together with the download link and he becomes incomunicado? And on top of that the README.txt file is corrupted or fails to mention the terms of use in sufficient detail or clarity?
Neocon wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:38 pm
If it is something that is available to download, just send them a link to download it. If your friend doesn't have a network connection, load it on a flash drive and share it that way, I guess.

If you have a copy of an addon that is no longer available to download, I don't see a problem with sending a copy to a friend by private message/e-mail. That's actually done quite often for some addons from the early 2000s that vanished in the last 20 years with no way to contact the authors.
Suppose I want to send a friend of mine just two aircraft from Major 1 pack. To do it halal I need to send him the link and he'll be overwhelmed with unrelated models. What an utter turn-off.

If I have a copy of something that's not available to download, I don't see a problem in uploading it into a dedicated YSF addon website unless it's a crappy model that might misrepresent the modder's true talent. That'd be up to the library administrators to decide. Why do we have to assume by default that because the modder vanished together with his download link that his models are no longer to be publicly available? Libraries? Anyone?

Of course we could go on with the petty bickering forever. In any case I'm quite confident none of the staff from YSFHQ will pursue a normal YSF addon website like the many others out there for other sims and games. At the very least, however, they can make a user-friendly interface that connects to the addon excel file that will allow users to filter results. With the programming skills some of them have, they can have python scripts automatically add catrgories to aircraft such as country of origin and manufacturer to be further able to filter the results.

If you may not have noticed, there isn't a single place properly dedicated to uploading YSF addons except this forum and forums by their own nature do a sorry job at that. And as you can see, these simple proposals and observations don't tackle the underlining problem of being unable to download good aircraft individually (akin to repackaging) or submitting other modders' high standard publicly and freely available works (akin to reuploading). So please, do not improve YSFHQ. It's called being respectful to the modder's wishes.

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Swift » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:51 am

they can make a user-friendly interface that connects to the addon excel file that will allow users to filter results.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by NightRaven » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:20 am

Strike wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
But more to the point, how are we supposed to know a modder's wishes if his website vanishes together with the download link and he becomes incomunicado? And on top of that the README.txt file is corrupted or fails to mention the terms of use in sufficient detail or clarity?
if a modder disappears, most of the time they would never come back to raise a dispute, or at the very least care enough to do so.
as for the readme, usually modders package them along with the mod itself in a zip, so highly unlikely that only the readme gets corrupted while the rest of the mod is fine.
Strike wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
Why do we have to assume by default that because the modder vanished together with his download link that his models are no longer to be publicly available? Libraries? Anyone?
has that always been the case? usually when a download link becomes dead and someone wants it, 1 of 2 things happen:
a) nobody has it, so nothing happens
b) someone who has it graciously reuploads it
ive not seen the case where a mod vanishes and people refuse to reupload it even though they have it.
Strike wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
Of course we could go on with the petty bickering forever. In any case I'm quite confident none of the staff from YSFHQ will pursue a normal YSF addon website like the many others out there for other sims and games. At the very least, however, they can make a user-friendly interface that connects to the addon excel file that will allow users to filter results. With the programming skills some of them have, they can have python scripts automatically add catrgories to aircraft such as country of origin and manufacturer to be further able to filter the results.

If you may not have noticed, there isn't a single place properly dedicated to uploading YSF addons except this forum and forums by their own nature do a sorry job at that. And as you can see, these simple proposals and observations don't tackle the underlining problem of being unable to download good aircraft individually (akin to repackaging) or submitting other modders' high standard publicly and freely available works (akin to reuploading). So please, do not improve YSFHQ. It's called being respectful to the modder's wishes.
we did use to have a few websites that do this, namely ysfinder (finding mods), ysupload and ysrepo (hosting mods). ysfinder was a pretty good search tool that sadly went offline roughly when i largely left ys a couple of years back. ysupload and ysrepo were dedicated sites to hosting addons, but i imagine the visitor rates werent enough to justify the cost of hosting. regarding ur suggestion for hosting aircraft individually, that would be a lot of work for modders and would increase clutter for end users wanting to download many aircraft from a modder. its the reason why packs exist in the first place.

i find the discussion about copyright pretty superfluous for such a small community like ours, especially since people have been making mods for well over a decade and a half now without any big legal issues cropping up. also dont forget the large 3d warehouses online like turbosquid that offer way more detailed and accurate models; not only do they slap on their own licenses for models of copyrighted aircraft, they also charge hundreds of dollars per model, and as far as i can tell they do not seek any permission from the manufacturers as well. i think our current model of free mods and simple notes on use works just fine.

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Hornet » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:27 am

When his website gone, how we can know his addon policy?

Here is the actual case of this.
Decaff want to recreate the aircraft from YS Major. But I know that model isn't originally made by Major.
It was from <SAP> and then we need to find out his policy for it. But his website is already gone and only reupload of his addon left. And that addon pack didn't contain any readme file.

Then this is meaning we can use this because he didn't left anything now?
I think it's just rationalization. We have to do everything we can.

So I use the Wayback Machine to find out his website from there. And there it was.
Finally I found his terms of addon and here is his comment.
Satoru wrote:Please do not edit, modify and publish data such as add-ons without permission. Also, if you want to modify it and publish it, please let us know by e-mail or bulletin board.(Even if only part of the usage is used)
What lesson we could learn from here?
Do not judge his opinion until you find out. There is various way to find out about this.
If you try your best but couldn't find out, then leave it there.

Sure, there will be no problem to upload it without any permission because most of them already leave YS and never visit the FHQ.
Who knows, who cares?

But we are just doing nothing because we don't want to make problem that maybe can happened.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by decaff_42 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:52 pm

To add onto this example from Hornet. I did a bunch of work thinking the F-8 model was from YS Major and followed his policies.
YS Major wrote:All models may be modified as long is credits are given to myself and possible original creators.
However as Hornet pointed out SAP's policies differed and I've sent a message to SAP. Until we have clarification, I stopped work on the project to respect the wishes of the original modder, despite having put perhaps 50 hours into the project.
Strike wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
Now, I clearly understand that in this community "repainting" also implies repackaging. Modders don't always leave explicit provisions on repackaging or reuploading only.
Re-packaging is when you take someone's addon and just include it in your addon release with no changes.
Repainting is taking the base model and making a livery change. Some modders restrict repaint permissions as Hornet has mentioned. I have done it myself.
Strike wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
In any case I'm quite confident none of the staff from YSFHQ will pursue a normal YSF addon website like the many others out there for other sims and games.
We have had that in the past: YSUpload and YSRepo. They are expensive to maintain for a free community and require attention by volunteers. It is unsustainable unless members like you donate money and also volunteer time and effort.
Strike wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:30 am
At the very least, however, they can make a user-friendly interface that connects to the addon excel file that will allow users to filter results.
The database exists as folks have pointed out repeatedly to you. It is literally the first option shown in the "How to Find Addons" post.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by K2W » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:46 am

Hey, Mr. Strike.
I understand your thoughts for add-on policies or copyrights issues.
Now, you got a mount of replies about our thoughts and cultures.
So, I have a question.

What do you want to do after this discussion?

In my thought, this discussion doesn't benefit anyone.
If you claim our "illegality", our culture won't change easily. Rather, we will be less willing to cooperate with you.

When you want develop new system or something for YS addon community,
what you should do are to create it actually and to get our favor for your works, is not to refute us legally.

In my opinion, you can do anything as you like. If you think you don't need our agreements or permissions, you can make anything without them.
But, you must be known that each person can decide his own stances for your project.
Support or opposition, participation or not, cooperate or resist... I'm free to decide my attitude for you at anytime. We all will do so.

Actually, legal or illegal is not matter, because No one will bring our troubles to real court.
The matter is only whether we can get along or quarrel.
If you are willing to quarrel, you are free to do it, and if you want to get along, you should respect each of our policies and behave like a gentleman.

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Deleted User 4845 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:49 pm

I’d like to wrap up with an analogy. I’m somewhat of an audiophile. Imagine Soji makes a new, never before seen speaker and amplifier set he designed himself in his workshop. However, the technology is so unique it requires a special kind of cable between said amplifier and speaker. Unfortunately, Soji is not very good at making this cable, after all, he’s still making improvements to the circuits. Consequently, the cable that comes with the speaker and amplifier is very short. However, many fans of Soji’s audio system have become quite skilled at making cables. And mind you, each cable is different and has a different effect over the sound. So far I had been quite content with the cable that was included until I discovered free after-market options which were longer and more varied. Indeed, I was just looking to upgrade from the 50cm cable to maybe a 2 or 3m cable. However, the shortest cable length on average is about 50m long and on top of that, it sometimes comes all tangled up, and tangled up in rules, even. But I only need a small fraction from each 50+m cable out there. And longer cables only add noise. So I thought: hey, you know what? I’m going to cut this unnecessarily long cable into more convenient lengths, and I’m going to make the best bits available for others to use. And those old cables that deliver a sweet sound? I’m going to make exact copies of those so others can enjoy them in case the original supply shuts down. And I’d also like to put them together in one place so that people wouldn’t have to waste hours making sense of the market if they don't get put off by this mess from the start -that is. And guess what? The cable craftsmen say: Oh no you won’t. Not without perms. To which I thought: Wait a second, this cable has Panasonic written all over it with model number and all. You’re riding on the success of an already famous trademark and you seek permission as if it were your original creation?

And then, as I get to know the community better, it turns out that many people who are active in the after-market cable manufacturing business ever so often approach Soji with requests and suggestions. Interestingly they never offer anything much to the man to improve his product despite having perfected the craft of making cables that work exclusively with his sound system. I browsed all topics in the general section of this forum and the only memorable event to put your grain of sand was with the HQP which is by now quite outdated and in and of itself, quite bloated with redundant cables. It also omits cables which are far better although to be fair, they may not have existed back then.

So yes, in conclusion, I’m fuming. You have so much talent yet you neglect the potential users’ user experience and from what I gather from the forum, you only take take take from Soji. No giving. Now I'm able and willing to put my grain of sand but I am not going to kiss modders' feet to be able to advertise their craft and grow their market.

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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by waspe414 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:57 pm

Strike wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:49 pm
Interestingly they never offer anything much to the man to improve his product despite having perfected the craft of making cables that work exclusively with his sound system
That's one heck of an assumption
Strike wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:49 pm
No giving.
Like I said on Discord, if you want to see change, be change. You want a website that compiles addons into easy downloads? Make it. Set the precedent. Build aircraft for it. Get modders on board. We're all doing this for fun: none of us owe anything to anyone. Complaining about things isn't going to get anywhere. Act.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by decaff_42 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:49 pm

Strike wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:49 pm
So yes, in conclusion, I’m fuming. You have so much talent yet you neglect the potential users’ user experience and from what I gather from the forum, you only take take take from Soji. No giving. Now I'm able and willing to put my grain of sand but I am not going to kiss modders' feet to be able to advertise their craft and grow their market.
It is not all "take take take" like you say. Some folks like my self have made a donation for Scenery Editor. Others make purchases on Amazon through the links on his page. Members of the community have approached Soji and offered their skills, talents and time to work on developing YSFlight. That has been declined and Soji continue to develop YSFlight and YSFlight related programs for his own enjoyment. Soji explicitly forbids the cracking of ysflight which we respect. With a closed source code and only Soji working on development, the only thing the community can do is play in the sandbox that Soji has made for us and find ways to enhance the user experience. This includes making addons, writing scripts for online play, organizing events, etc.
waspe414 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:57 pm
Complaining about things isn't going to get anywhere. Act.
I cannot emphasize this enough. Changing a community is more than one person can do. But one person can develop momentum and pull others in with their excitement, motivation and leadership. That teamwork makes community change happen. Its how squads form. The recent revival/creation of Red vs Blue combat is a perfect reflection of this. One person spearheads things, others get excited and see ways they can help and join in.
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Re: YSF addons and copyrights... Can you copyright a design that has been stolen?

Post by Hornet » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:44 am

You need to understand why the YSFS born.
Is it for the fun of people? No it never. The YSFS is just only fun for himself not us.
His goal is still set on to make the YSFS playable in old computers like Macintosh.
Strike wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:49 pm
it turns out that many people who are active in the after-market cable manufacturing business ever so often approach Soji with requests and suggestions.
Did it ever accepted? No.

Do you really think he gave us many things? Oh sure he did, lots of bug.


First what you claiming was illegality of our addons.
As I said already, secondary creation also have the copyright. But you are just keep claims original creations copyright only. In the end, what you want to tell us was just about reuploading the addons without permission.

It doesn't make any sense. If you want to talk about the copyright of the original aircraft, respect this secondary creation too.

"You are making illegal thing! Then you must do illegal thing too!"
This is what I look this all thread.

And there is A LOT OF ADDONS REUPLOADED IN YSFHQ.
viewtopic.php?t=1392
viewtopic.php?t=7150
viewtopic.php?t=8299

Do we really doing nothing about this? No.

And I totally agree with K2W. We should remind this again.
K2W wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:46 am
Hey, Mr. Strike.
I understand your thoughts for add-on policies or copyrights issues.
Now, you got a mount of replies about our thoughts and cultures.
So, I have a question.

What do you want to do after this discussion?

In my thought, this discussion doesn't benefit anyone.
If you claim our "illegality", our culture won't change easily. Rather, we will be less willing to cooperate with you.

When you want develop new system or something for YS addon community,
what you should do are to create it actually and to get our favor for your works, is not to refute us legally.

In my opinion, you can do anything as you like. If you think you don't need our agreements or permissions, you can make anything without them.
But, you must be known that each person can decide his own stances for your project.
Support or opposition, participation or not, cooperate or resist... I'm free to decide my attitude for you at anytime. We all will do so.

Actually, legal or illegal is not matter, because No one will bring our troubles to real court.
The matter is only whether we can get along or quarrel.
If you are willing to quarrel, you are free to do it, and if you want to get along, you should respect each of our policies and behave like a gentleman.
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Member of YS Flight Korea, Mad Shark Joint Force
YS FLIGHT F/A-18 Rhino Demonstration Team
President of MIRAE Airways

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